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Dangers of a Wet Layer

5 years 9 months ago - 5 years 9 months ago #45688 by Ray Mackaway
Hi folks,
I thought I should post this information. As mentioned below, I haven't finished the research as yet. I will update as I find more information. I intend to email this information to all the members who have purchased any of my books.

Dangers of a Wet Layer

I have been researching this issue for eighteen months or more. My research shows that a Wet Layer is more detrimental to an Air Layer than a dry layer. I'm still researching this subject, so my data is not complete as yet.
The following information will show what results from a wet layer, and what I am doing to address this issue. Please remember, this research is not complete.


A wet layer will appear quite brown in colour. If you squeeze the plastic you will see a lot of water in the layer. If a couple of holes are put in the bottom of the layer, and you squeeze the layer, you may find quite a lot of water will drain out.


After the plastic an sphagnum moss is removed, you will notice the muck and the branch are quite wet. There will be no sign of roots.
A real danger is that the excess moisture can root the branch/trunk, and prevent roots from forming.

I have applied the following two procedures to try and prevent this from happening.

SEALING THE ENDS OF THE LAYER


After the layer has been placed on the tree, and the plastic has been bound, I seal the layer with electrical tape.
If the layer is a vertical layer, only seal the top.


If the layer is a horizontal layer, seal both top and bottom.


If it's a vertical layer leave the bottom of the Alfoil open as shown.
I only bind the top and about half way down, this binding is simply to prevent the Alfoil from being blown off by the wind.
The idea of opening the Alfoil is to prevent capturing any water inside the Alfoil.


If it's a horizontal layer leave the bottom of the Alfoil open.
I only bind the two ends.

Saving the Layer

Can the layer be rescued? The answer is yes, as long as there is still good growth on the layer.
1. Remove the plastic, sphagnum moss, muck and wire.
2. Clean the area with a spray bottle.
3. Make a new cut above the old top cut until you can see new tissue.
4. Now do all the other steps to complete the new layer.
5. Make sure you squeeze most of the water out of the sphagnum. Don't have it too wet.
6. After the layer is completed seal the end/ends as described above.
7. Make sure you leave the Alfoil open at the bottom. This prevents water gathering in the Alfoil, which can wick up into the layer.

Regards Ray

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5 years 9 months ago #45694 by Reece
Great info! Thanks Ray.....
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5 years 8 months ago #45720 by Elmar Zielke
Thank you Ray,
What have been the detrimental effects?
Are you waiting to finish your research before you're looking to share that?!?
Cheers
Elmar

Cheers
Elmar Z.

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5 years 8 months ago #45724 by Ray Mackaway

Elmar wrote: Thank you Ray,
What have been the detrimental effects?
Are you waiting to finish your research before you're looking to share that?!? No mate, I still have a number of layers on different species in different locations.
Cheers
Elmar


Hi Elmar,
As I mentioned above, there were no roots and I even found one species where the bark on the branch was starting to rot.

As I gather more data I will share it with the group.

Regards Ray

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5 years 8 months ago #46005 by albert bartolozzi
Hi Ray, I think my shimpaku might be suffering from this. Can't see any roots yet and is turning brown at bottom of bag. Layered on 21/10/14. Better open it up and investigate. Will let you know what I find. Thanks for the info
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5 years 8 months ago #46007 by JC
Hi Ray

I have been following the material that you have been putting up for all to see how & what.

These are fantastic step by step progressions & as you show well documented & proven.

Keep up the good work.

Hope to catch up with you one day somewhere to have a chat.

JC
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5 years 8 months ago - 5 years 8 months ago #46011 by Ray Mackaway

albert bartolozzi wrote: Hi Ray, I think my shimpaku might be suffering from this. Can't see any roots yet and is turning brown at bottom of bag. Layered on 21/10/14. Better open it up and investigate. Will let you know what I find. Thanks for the info


Hi Albert,
I can't stress enough how detrimental wet layers are. I went over to a friends place yesterday and found that 5 layers she has on a Black Pine were all far to wet. I punched some holes in the bottom of the plastic, and with some gentle squeezing, water poured out of the layers. They also looked quite brown. The sphagnum moss should be more toward white in colour than brown. If you can see condensation under the plastic, that is quite enough water.

Regards Ray
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5 years 7 months ago #46141 by Ray Mackaway
Hi all,
I have gained some more data for this experiment. The following photo shows some of the layers I removed on 2 April 2015. These layers were placed on the tree a couple of months ago. It appears that the sealing of the ends of the layers is working the way I had hoped for. You will notice that the layers are more white in colour. They weren't dry, there was still enough moisture to keep them healthy. I went over to a friends place a week or so ago and found that she had injected some layers and made them too moist. When the layers are too moist the colour will be a brown colour and if you gently squeeze the layer you will see water inside the plastic. As long as there is condensation inside the plastic that is sufficient moisture. If you have a look further up in the thread, where I opened up one of the wet layers, you will notice how brown the layer looks. I redid this layer, sealing the ends, and it has worked very well. It is one of the layers in the photo. I still have some layers on at home and two other locations. When I gain the data from these I should be able to come to a final conclusion and write up the complete document.


The layers with sealing both ends were horizontal layers. The layer in the bottom left of the photo with sealing on top was a vertical layer.

Regards Ray

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5 years 3 weeks ago #48531 by Ray Mackaway
Hi folks,
I thought I should update where I am concerning Wet Layers. In the following I have marked in red the changes I've made to the first post.

Dangers of a Wet Layer
I have been researching this issue for eighteen months or more. My research shows that a Wet Layer is more detrimental to an Air Layer than a dry layer. I have finished my research for now and have added my Conclusion to the bottom of this article.


A wet layer will appear quite brown in colour. If you squeeze the plastic you will see a lot of water in the layer. If a couple of holes are put in the bottom of the layer, and you squeeze the layer, you may find quite a lot of water will drain out.


After the plastic an sphagnum moss is removed, you will notice the muck and the branch are quite wet. There will be no sign of roots.
A real danger is that the excess moisture can root the branch/trunk, and prevent roots from forming.

I have applied the following two procedures to try and prevent this from happening.

SEALING THE ENDS OF THE LAYER

After the layer has been placed on the tree, and the plastic has been bound, I seal the layer with electrical tape.
If the layer is a vertical layer, only seal the top.


If the layer is a horizontal layer, seal both top and bottom.


If it's a vertical layer leave the bottom of the Alfoil open as shown.
I only bind the top and about half way down, this binding is simply to prevent the Alfoil from being blown off by the wind.
The idea of opening the Alfoil is to prevent capturing any water inside the Alfoil.


If it's a horizontal layer leave the bottom of the Alfoil open.
I only bind the two ends.

Saving the Layer
Can the layer be rescued? The answer is yes, as long as there is still good growth on the layer.
1. Remove the plastic, sphagnum moss, muck and wire.
2. Clean the area with a spray bottle.
3. Make a new cut above the old top cut until you can see new tissue.
4. Now do all the other steps to complete the new layer.
5. Make sure you squeeze most of the water out of the sphagnum. Don't have it too wet.
6. After the layer is completed seal the end/ends as described above.
7. Make sure you leave the Alfoil open at the bottom. This prevents water gathering in the Alfoil, which can wick up into the layer.

Conclusion
I have come to the conclusion that the extra steps I am taking now to prevent wet layers is certainly worth the effort. I am now convinced that it is better to have the layers dryer. In my books I mention that I don't squeeze all the moisture out of the sphagnum moss. I would now recommend that most of the liquid be squeezed out before placing on the layer. It is much easier to rehydrate the layer when needed. If you start with a wet layer it most probably won't take.
To rehydrate a layer, check the section in either book on Dry Layers. If there is condensation under the plastic there is still sufficient moisture. If there is no sign of condensation and the layer is starting to look much whiter it would need to be rehydrated. When doing this, don't overdo it. It would be better to do this a couple of time rather than saturating the layer.




Regards Ray

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